Annetta Nunn Interviewed on December 13, 2006

CUNNINGHAM: Hello, I'm Malena Cunningham here with Birmingham police chief, Annetta Nunn, for the Female First series to learn more about African American women who've become first in their field. And thank you so much for joining us today chief Nunn. Let's start from the very beginning, if you'll tell us about your background, when and where you were born, the youngest, oldest of how many children, that sort of thing.

NUNN: I was born here in Birmingham, Alabama, grew up in the Ensley area. I was born, was 19th, 1958. And I said, grew up here in Ensley. I'm the middle of five girls. My parents always wanted a boy, but my mom stayed after the last girl, that was it. So, I'm the middle of five.

CUNNINGHAM: What was that like growing up in a family of five girls? What were your goals and dreams and aspirations?

NUNN: Well, the age difference is so great. I mean, my oldest sister is 64 years old, and the baby is 40. So, we had a little space between there, but it was great. I guess, growing up I was closer to the ones that was closest in age, but 00:01:00we got along very well. We had our fights like any other sisters did, and sometimes we even ganged up on each other, two against two, because the oldest had moved out by then. But some of my goals and aspirations, like any child, we wanted some of the things we saw that the other children have, but unfortunately, parents couldn't afford it, but they did the best, and we grew up pretty well, stable family life for the most part. At the age of 14, I decided that I wanted to be a police officer. I went through other careers. There was a time I wanted to be a race car driver, a truck driver, and I even wanted to be a nun. I am nun now but a different kind, but since I have two children, you know it's not that kind.

NUNN: But, I'm not Catholics, so I never knew why I wanted to be a nun. I guess The Flying Nun was on at that time, and they looked pretty good. But at 14 I wanted to be a police officer because of some of the things that I saw going on in my neighborhood. Sort of like we have crack houses now, we had illegal 00:02:00whiskey houses in the area then. And, unfortunately, we saw some police officers that were taking bribes not to bust those houses. And I decided that's not the way it's supposed to be. That's not law enforcement. I want to help my community. So the best way that I could do that was to become a police officer. And also, I like helping people. So, we could mold the two together.

CUNNINGHAM: You were born in 1958, so you grew up ... You were very young during the Civil Rights Movement. Do you remember any of that, and the police brutality, the black and white footage that's so famous here in Kelly Ingram park of the dogs and the water hoses, the bombing of the church? How much of that do you remember, and did any of that influence your life as a child?

NUNN: Well, a lot of it I don't remember because I was young, but I know that there were things that were going on. So, we lived in Ensley, we rarely came downtown. I don't have, really, any memories of coming downtown Birmingham. We'd go to South side to the doctor's office, and that was about it. I do remember 00:03:00there was a time they were coming through with the wagons. The caravan was coming through, and we all heard about it, and as little children, I mean, we wanted to see the horses. And they actually camped out in a church that was probably three blocks from my home, so we went there to see that. And I remember seeing some things on television. And other things that happened, and I didn't realize until I was older exactly what it was, which was the time that, probably, children were leaving school, even though I was very, very young. We were told that something else was happening, and, "They were going to come and get you.", et cetera.

NUNN: And it was actually the children leaving school to come to Kelly Ingram Park, and in that area doing the demonstrations. So, I remember seeing some footage on television, and when Dr. King died, I definitely remembered that, because I think I was about 10 years old then. So those things I do remember. Things happened, I think our parents kept us from some things, but my mother even told us as we got older, a store that was in downtown is within, which is 00:04:00not as ... It's dead right now, but it's on the way back. That was the hustling and bustling area, because most of the people were coal miners, and that community catered to coal miners. And being very fair complexion, my sister was too, my mother was there in one of the department store shopping, and she walked away from my sister. She was there playing with a little young white child, and they were playing together. And then when my mother walked up, and the lady realized that my sister was actually a black child, she pulled her child away.

NUNN: And so, children learn those behaviors, and that's the worst thing about it. We can play together until we learn that, hey, we're not supposed to be together, because there are these taboos. And even as an ... I wasn't an adult, I was a teenager. I think I was in college, and when we moved into an integrated neighborhood, and one of the children, I mean, they were in love with my baby sister. I mean, he was a little white boy, and he loved her. He even hid in our doghouse, because he didn't want to go away. But he walked up to my mom one day, and there'd been no problems, he was sweet little boy, and he told my mother ... 00:05:00He called her by her first name, which was one thing that caught us off guard. And he called, he said, he said, "You're a nigger." My mom said, "What did you say?" And he said it again. And she asked him, she said, "Do you know what that means?" He said, "No, ma'am." And then she explained it to him, that that's just a derogatory term for a dirty lowdown person.

NUNN: And he had been outside playing, and his hands were dirty. And he started looking at himself like, "Is that me, because my hands are dirty? So we know that people learn those things. Children are not born with it, they learn it from adults.

CUNNINGHAM: You said when you were 14, that's when you knew you wanted to be a police officer. Did you express that to your parents, and then, with the Bull Connor era, and with folks maybe not being comfortable with the police department back in the '50s and '60s, what reaction did you get from your family when you told them you wanted to be one?

NUNN: I don't know exactly what age I was when I told my mother. I was still in high school. But she's always been supportive. Although my mother grew up in 00:06:00what we call the country, and migrated to Birmingham, she worked over the mountain for her family, I believe was blacks that she worked for that family. But she never taught us prejudice, she never taught us racial hatred or anything like that. She always taught us that, to treat people like you want to be treated, you can achieve whatever goals that you wanted to achieve as long as you worked hard, and believed in yourself, and kept God first. So, when I just wanted be a police officer, I received her blessings. I knew it worried her, probably, but she never communicated that. I knew I was in her prayers, and, to this day, I mean, she's always been supportive.

CUNNINGHAM: So, by the time you were 14, or in high school, that would have been the early '70s, were there women in the Birmingham police department at that time? Do you know?

NUNN: I think the first ones may have been coming in, but they were like, neat maids, or working in Juvenile Services, which most departments when they first 00:07:00started accepting women, that's where they were. They weren't in patrol. So, in the early '70s, I believe that's when women started to come in. I never saw one, but, that was always guys, but that's just what I wanted to do.

CUNNINGHAM: But that still didn't deter you.

NUNN: No, that's what I wanted to do.

CUNNINGHAM: So, tell me about your college years. You left what high school in Birmingham?

NUNN: I attended P.D. Jackson-Olin High School in Ensley. And I graduated in 1976, where I went to the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. I was there for three and a half years, and was scheduled to graduate, and I had started to take an internship program at the Birmingham City jail. So, I would migrate a couple of days to the university, and worked here at the Birmingham City jail, and I took the police test while I was working at the jail, and that would have been ... I took the test in 1979, and I was notified in February of 1980 that I have 00:08:00been accepted into the academy. So I actually had to quit school, because by that time I was taking basketball at UAB, because I only needed one hour to graduate, and I graduated from the University, and the police academy two weeks apart.

CUNNINGHAM: Wow. So, did you get your degree in criminal justice?

NUNN: Yes, a degree into criminal justice in 1980.

CUNNINGHAM: What was it like that first job working in the jail?

NUNN: As an intern, I mean, it was great, because I was getting paid. That was the most money I'd ever made, but we were interacting with prisoners. We were watching the prisoners, everyone except those that were charged with felonies. The regular police officers did that. But it was interesting, because I ran into people that I knew from the neighborhood. One of the things you had to notice that, you treat people like you want it to be, and some were there, and they definitely needed to be there, and some of there through mistakes. But at that time, they had GED programs going into jail, and there was some they were 00:09:00struggling with their studies, so we would offer assistance to them, and then place them back in their cells. And, I always try to treat people like I wanted to be treated, as humanely as possible, and it's paid off in the long run because, we can't remember everybody we interacted in the jail, but I have run into individuals that were in jail, on the street, and they'll come up to me and say, "Well, you know I was in jail." I'll say, "So, how did I treat you?" Say, "Well." I'll say, "Okay, good." Because you never know who you're going to run up on.

CUNNINGHAM: Exactly. So, when you finished the police academy, was that about 1980?

NUNN: Yes.

CUNNINGHAM: Were you in a class with other black female officer candidates?

NUNN: Yes, we were actually hired ... City of Birmingham was under a consent decree, and actually still under consent decree, I guess we'll come from under it soon, to hire more minorities. So, I always tell people I fit two categories. On my class, we started out with nine people who we ended up with seven. They 00:10:00were four women and three men. They were four African Americans in that class. As I was saying, I fit two categories, and I tell people now, I do believe in affirmative action, it's not lowering any standards, it's just making sure that you're qualified, that you can achieve those goals and get in. And after that, when I was promoted to sergeant, I guess I was one of the youngest people to ever be promoted. Three years within the job, I was promoted to sergeant, and there was a lawsuit filed by the Fraternal Order of Police on behalf of one of their members, because it said that we were only promoted because we were minorities, and because of African Americans, and we were not qualified.

NUNN: We had to give depositions, and it's one of the things I tell young people now, you think you have time to play around when you're in school with your grades, but you don't know where they're going to show up. Because those records were entered into the depositions, because in fact, they were trying to prove they were not qualified, didn't have the education, et cetera, but, in the end, 00:11:00it was proven that we were overqualified for the position, because we all had college degrees, and done well in school, et cetera.

CUNNINGHAM: How did that make you feel to have that challenge, your background, your credibility, your abilities challenged, and to say that you were only given the job or promoted because you were African American?

NUNN: Well, it makes you angry, because you know that you are qualified, that you have a sincere desire for this position. And nobody knows everything. I know that I was young in the department, there's still things that I had to learn. I mean, there are still things that I'm learning now, but I knew that I was just as qualified as anyone else. And, to say that I was only given a position because of my race, or because I was a woman, I mean, it's a slap in the face.

CUNNINGHAM: So, you would have been promoted to sergeant, what, about 1983, 1984, and how old were you then?

NUNN: Should've been at 24, I believe.

CUNNINGHAM: I'm sure there were some older man, particularly older white men under your command, how were you able to get their respect and be treated as a sergeant and not as a woman?

NUNN: Well, even during the promotional interview, that was one of the questions that one of the supervisors asked, how would I handle when I have a problem working with men who were older, more experienced? I said, "I wouldn't have a problem. They might have a problem, but I wouldn't." I was going to do what needed to be done. And there were those who would try to trick you, because they knew I was young, bring up situations that they already knew the answer to, to see how you would handle it. But I will say that, one of my greatest supporters during my first promotion was a white sergeant that had normally worked the internal affairs, which most officers hate. They don't like you working internal affairs, because that's their job investigating police.

NUNN: Sergeant Harry Yeager, he knew some of these things were going on, and he went to them and told them, "You don't do things like that." And if he saw that there was something that I can improve on, he would tell me. So, he was one of my greatest supporters.

CUNNINGHAM: We often hear that in the police department, there's a good old boys network, and a lot of times, the female officers, and even the higher ups may be sexually harassed. Did you have to deal with any of that in the department, and how did you handle it if you did?

NUNN: And sexual harassment is ... Of course, there were things going on because there weren't many women, but my training officer who happened to be a black male, he's one of the deputy chiefs now, Jerry Todd, he told me on the training car, he said, "You're young, black female," he said, "people are going to approach you ..." And he didn't say sexually, we knew what he was talking about. He said, "They're going approach you." He's saying, "How you handle that first encounter will determine what you have to deal with within this department." 00:14:00Shortly after I was released from the training car, and I can now ride with other officers, or ride by myself, I was riding with another officer who happened to be a white male. And he said, "We could go up to the water tower and do something." The water tower was an area on the beat where there was a storage tank, a water storage tank. It was secluded, we would have to drive up and check for people who parked and people like to go up there and have sex. So, we'd have to patrol there.

NUNN: And he said, "We could go up there and maybe do something." I said, "Yes, we can go up there, but only one of us will come back, because I'll shoot you if I have to." And nobody ever approached me after that. So, I'm sure they spread the word. So, I didn't really have to deal with any of that type of overt harassing behavior. Now, in assignment, things like that, I often felt that, even some of the ideas that you put forth, or some of the things you wanted to 00:15:00do, or actions you took, had a male done that, it would not have been questioned. Even now I feel that way sometimes. The issues that we've had involving tasers or patrol rifles, that some of them were here when I assumed the position, some of them male or departments that surround us have, they are headed by males, they haven't had to deal with those issues, but I have, and I feel that sometimes that's the reason.

CUNNINGHAM: How quickly were you able to climb the ranks through the police department?

NUNN: I think I came through pretty quickly. I was promoted to lieutenant in 1991, I believe it was, captain in '95, deputy chief in 2000, and chief in 2003. Part of the reason I believe that came through so quickly, well, as I always say, I was qualified for the position. I really was never seeking promotion. 00:16:00They had to encourage me to take the first promotion. All I wanted to be was an officer. So, what I tried to do was always geared toward improving the department and helping others, and even trying to bring others up behind me. So, I think people in key places noticed that, that I was not a backstabber, or trying to put anybody else down. And, one of our former chiefs, Chief [Doych 00:16:26], when he came in, and he was the only one that's ever headed this department from outside. He was from New York.

NUNN: A lot of people left under his administration, a lot of supervisors. So, a lot of vacancies were created that had been ... I mean, maybe have been stagnant before as far as promotion, but there were a lot of openings, so it created opportunity for you to move up quicker.

CUNNINGHAM: Being a police officer is a demanding job, it's also a dangerous job when you add on the beat, how were you able to have a career, and then also be a wife and a mother? Talk about that, because I'm sure a lot of women struggle with balancing career and family. And then, you putting yourself in the line of 00:17:00duty and in danger on a regular basis, how were you able to handle that?

NUNN: First of all, I always say is my faith in God. When I talk to recruits, I tell them, "You believe in what you want to believe in, I'm telling you what works for me." That's number one. Because you do have situations, you do have stresses that can just blow your mind. So you have to have a stabilizing force, and that's been number one. The support of my family and friends has been the second thing. I have had issues and still have issues. When I was married, my initial plans was to work for the police department for three years, go to the FBI, but I'm married in between time and I didn't want to do a lot of traveling, which probably would have had to do, so I decided to stay. So, there was a time when, after I had children, when I first had them, I was then a detective division, which made it a little better, because you had, sometime, normal 00:18:00working hours. But if you had to work over, or called out, and, if my husband was working a different shift, I had my family that I could call and pick up the children, do certain things.

NUNN: You get called out at night ... There was only one time that presented a problem, because I actually had to put my son in the car and drop him somewhere else, because nobody was at home. So, you do have those things to deal with. And maybe even had to take them to community meetings. They will be studying in the back of the community meeting while I was doing what I had to do. But having family definitely helped. It would have made it almost impossible had that not been the case to assume certain promotional positions.

CUNNINGHAM: I would think that you'd have to be a strong person to be a police officer. How were you able to, I guess, turn some of that strength off and go home, and be a wife and mother?

NUNN: Sometimes they might have debated it, whether you turned it on. But, you 00:19:00have to realize that the job is the job, and home is home. And, even now, I tell people that, "In this line of work, I am the head authority figure." But while I was married, I'm not married right now, and I was at home, I looked to my husband to be the head authority figure, because my marriage was based on biblical principles, and that's it. It's not a subservient role, but it's just what I believe in. I had to, sometimes, force myself to turn it off with my children, because seeing things that happen in the neighborhood, that happen to children, and you know how they're exposed ... I had two sons in an urban environment, they are at risk, even if they're not doing anything, they're at risk. I had to remind myself that they are children, they want to do certain things. They want to go certain places. You have to let them be children, and pray for them, and pray that they make it back safely. And, I still have to do 00:20:00that, because my youngest is 16 years old, and now he's driving.

CUNNINGHAM: Well, in 2003, you made history when Mayor Bernard Kincaid appointed you the first woman to be police chief for the city of Birmingham. You weren't the first black, Johnny Johnson was the first African American. What was that like for you to have been named the first woman, and to make history in doing so?

NUNN: To me, I was just still Annetta Nunn, Annetta Watts Nunn. So, it was a bit overwhelming, because, I often tell people, you had Gladys Knight and you had The Pips. I was always comfortable being a Pip, being in the background. But then, all of a sudden, I mean, you're out there. I was actually in federal court on a case during that time that I was promoted. And when I came back to my office, I mean, the office was filled with flowers and congratulations, and I 00:21:00was getting different things, and actually had three different celebrations of that, and a lot of things were going on, because they said, "You are the first, you just don't realize it." I said, "Well, I know I'm the first, but I'm still just me." So, it was a little overwhelming, but, I mean, I enjoyed it. I see it as a chance for me to represent Birmingham in a positive light.

NUNN: And even now, when I go to different conferences, and some people still don't realize, even some people in this area don't realize we have a black female as chief now. "Birmingham? Birmingham, Alabama?" I say, "Yes." And, one of the jokes with, and I say, "We still have dogs, we still have hoses, but now we use them only for law enforcement purposes."

CUNNINGHAM: What role do you think, or do you see yourself as a role model for other women, particularly, in the police department, who may have never thought that a woman could ascend to the position that you have?

NUNN: I do see myself as a role model for men and women. I see it as a source of 00:22:00inspiration that, if you think that something is impossible, nothing is impossible, but you have to be prepared for it when that opportunity opens up. You have to remove all excuses for someone not to give you that position, and that doesn't just start the day the position becomes open. It's basically, is a lifelong process. And I stress that with young men, young women. I enjoy speaking to them, coming to show them that, "Whatever it is that you want to do, that you can do it if you prepare yourself." So, I do see myself as a role model, and that's why it's important when I'm out in public, or in private, or wherever I am, that I realize that I am representing young women in Birmingham area.

CUNNINGHAM: With a woman heading the police department in the largest city in the state, has it changed the atmosphere of the town inside of the police 00:23:00department? Is it less of a good old boys network? Has any of that changed at all with a woman leading the way?

NUNN: I think it has. I think there have been some improvement. People who have known me throughout my entire career, men and women, they know that there are certain things that I accept, that I don't accept. And so, if there was maybe some things that were going on, either they stopped doing it, or they're hiding it better. So, I think that has changed. Even the disciplinary process, that was one of the biggest gripes when I came in, that it was unfair, in that, some people were treated differently based on who you know. I try to be fair with everyone. That doesn't mean that we're going to gloss over what you do, but we do try to take into account the severity of what you've done, your past record, and what we've done is similar instances. So, we do try to be fair, and I think that's going a long way.

NUNN: They also know that if they come up with an idea, and it's implemented, 00:24:00that I will give them credit for it. So, I tell them, "What you do makes me look good. We represent each other."

CUNNINGHAM: One big controversy, unfortunately, during your tenure this year, and then in 2005, and 2006, has been the skyrocketing murder rate in the Birmingham area. Of course, you as police chief are not responsible for murders, but how do you get a handle on crime, and get people to realize that this is wrong and try to stop this?

NUNN: That has and still is one of our biggest challenges. In 2004, we had a 17 year long in the murder rate. And the next year, I mean, it did skyrocket. Unfortunately, we had some multiple murders. And what we have done is tried to look at some of the common things in the environment, or the person's background that were murdered. We actually did a prevention type bookmark that we hand out at different events, showing people that if they follow certain tips in a 00:25:00prevention mode, that your chance or the likelihood of you being a victim of a crime, any crime, especially homicide, lessens. If you are not involved in drug activity, associating with people involved in drugs, you know your domestic partner those you interact with, do they have a temper? You hanging out in areas that are known to be drug areas, so high crime areas where we do a lot of enforcement, then your chances of becoming a victim escalate. But if you are avoiding those type of activities, then it decreases. And we can usually show them that that's what's happening.

NUNN: And, unfortunately, still not listening to it. So that's one of our biggest challenges. So we're seeking to work on a new campaign to make it even more public, to get that information out where people will see it on a continuous basis, and when we speak on it, we do it, and hopefully even put it 00:26:00on the website. And, just as you do preventing fires with the fire alarms, it's the same way. This is an alarm, avoid. If you see these things going on, you need to avoid those, and make them more aware.

CUNNINGHAM: How does it make you feel as a person knowing that, this is your city, this is where you grew up, and you've seen a major change in the city during your lifetime, and particularly, in your tenure in the police department? How does that make you feel?

NUNN: It makes me feel great that we have made a change. When I go to some conferences, people ask us, they talk about diversity. We even get surveys coming to the department about diversity in the department, but they are looking for African Americans as a diversity. I say, "I don't have that problem." I said, "I need to get more white females in the department. That's my minority." So it makes me glad that we have changed, but some of the things that I've seen 00:27:00come along with the change is not only within our department, within our community, it saddens me, because we are one of the most important sites, even though we didn't get a stamp. We are one of the most important events that happened during the Civil Rights Movement, and the people that died for the freedoms that we have, and we don't take advantage of it. We live in communities that once we couldn't live in, and now we trash them. We attend schools that we once couldn't attend, and we destroy them. There are job opportunities that are available that once we could not apply for, yet we fail to prepare for them.

NUNN: And I know people say, "Well, poverty leads to this." We've always lived in poverty, but there was just an expectation that you would not fail, that you were representing those who came before you, so you could not fail. But I just don't see that now. We don't even know our own history. And, that's one of the 00:28:00things I also try to teach wherever I go. We're engaging the faith community that's going to help us, because we got to make a change from the inside out, and that was what turned the Civil Rights Movement around, the faith community led that. So we're going back to the faith community and doing that again. And, it gives me the opportunity to use the painting that McDowell did, because there are religious leaders on there, it points back to where we came from, that I'm here because of them, and so I have to pave the way for those that are coming behind me.

NUNN: And if we don't know our history, then we will repeat the mistakes of the past. And I think if we can get that history back where it needs to be, it's not blaming anybody, but it's realizing the mistakes that were made, and it's also realizing that it wasn't just black people involved in the Civil Rights Movement. There were many different people who came together, and changed, not only Birmingham, but the nation and the world, and we can do that once again.

CUNNINGHAM: How much pressure do you feel being the first female police chief to 00:29:00make sure you do the job right so that it opens the door for other women to have that opportunity?

NUNN: Well, I felt a lot of pressure coming in. And not only myself, but I spoke with Chief Ella Cummings, who's the chief in Detroit. We ran a women's conference in Los Angeles, and this was the same thing that she said, that our greatest pressure we felt coming into office was that, no matter what happened, if it would have happened no matter who's in office, whether male or female, that we would be blamed because we were females. It wouldn't have happened if you didn't have a female in there. So that was our primary concern. Second concerns, which are not only affecting us, but male chiefs as well, is the economy, the way the economy is going right now. A lot of the funding is going toward Homeland Security. It used to come to local law enforcement to fight on 00:30:00the home front.

NUNN: And one of our former Secretary General said at a conference, that home front is not safe until the community is safe. And so, as those resources are taken away, we see things starting to happen; our personnel being deployed, we have staffing shortages, and that's making it even even worse. So, these are some trying times for law enforcement across the nation.

CUNNINGHAM: Think back to 1980 when you had that internship at the Birmingham jail, could you have ever imagined, or did you ever imagine then that, you will one day be running the entire department?

NUNN: I never imagined it. Never thought about it, never even wanted it. As i said, I was encouraged to take my first promotional exam, and I got to where I like. I said, "I like this, telling other people what to do." So I started to take others. But I never envisioned myself as being the chief of police. I'm 00:31:00grateful to God that I am here, because I feel that He put me here, and I'll be here until he's ready for me to leave whenever that He is. And when I'm not in this position, I'll still be working to improve my community wherever I am, and hopefully it opens the way for others that will come behind me, even if they don't want to be chief, to at least open their mind to think that, "I can do this, even if I don't want to. I can do this."

CUNNINGHAM: What legacy would you like to leave behind as having been the first African American woman, police chief of the largest city in Alabama? What do you want people to have known about you, or remembered about what you did in that position?

NUNN: Well, I've always said one of my prayers is that, when I go out, I want to go out on a good note. I want to leave things better than they were when I came. And I think, within the department, that has happened. I think, within the community, that is happening, and it is happening. Always have my naysayers, but 00:32:00people know that I'm out there, that I'm not only just talking, but I'm physically out there working, doing some of the things that I asked them to do. One of the things I tell my personnel, I don't ask them to do anything that I wouldn't do myself. That's why when we had taser, I had to get tased, because I told them, I would ask. "We don't have to do that anymore now, though." But I want them to know that, remember me as being a first, being one that was a chief that led by example, that led according to the directions of God, that showed that you can have a Godly life, that in a police environment, that you don't have to be nasty, that you don't have to use physical force against everybody, that you can communicate, you can bring those skills that are usually seen as female skills, although they are not. A lot of males have them, they just don't 00:33:00like to show them.

NUNN: The ability to communicate, the ability to get people to collaborate, to work together, not caring who gets the credit, but to get things done, I would like them to remember me as doing that, and spreading that, not only within my department, but within the community and the surrounding municipalities as well. And, always maintaining my integrity, and keeping God first in my life, and making time for family. Because we tell recruits and people in the community that, "This is our profession, but don't ever let this be the only thing that you do. Have something to do outside." And, I do a few things outside. My time is pretty tight, but I do try to do things that are not related to police work at all. I don't hang out with a lot of police people, may have wanted to, but have a separate life so that you can maintain the balance. Sometimes it's 00:34:00imbalanced, unbalanced, but you try to maintain it as much as possible.

CUNNINGHAM: In 2004, three of your officers were gunned down in the Ensley community, and we saw something about you publicly that we had not seen before at the memorial service, you sang. Are you now known as the singing police chief?

NUNN: Well, one of the local writers has referred to me, tongue in cheek, as the singing nun. It was a derogatory article, because I was singing in a vigil that we were having after stuff, all off that. And they said I needed to be doing something else besides singing. But, that's my title now. I'll accept that. And, 2004 was a bad year for me. I call it the year from hell as far as the department. We had people that were within the department that were accused of crimes. We had these three officers killed. We had some unfortunate police 00:35:00shootings. They were high profile. So that was a pretty tough year. And during the memorial service, I debated about whether to sing, because that was the first time I had sang outside of a church environment. But, the Sunday before those services, we were going to have four different services that week, and it was tough. And I knew that, from going to other funerals, when you hear Amazing Grace on the bagpipes, and when they play taps, that's what always gives me. And I said, "Lord, how am I going to make it through these services? I got to be strong for everybody else."

NUNN: And that Sunday, at church, I sang, The Center of my Joy by Richard Smallwood. And it was like a quickening, I would say, of my spirit. I just felt stronger. I said, "You know what? I've got the spirit now, Holy Spirit. I can 00:36:00make it through this." And the song that I sang at the memorial service, I'd just been singing that all the way up to it. I'm determined to walk with Jesus. And as I was sitting there, I said, "I want to share this with them". So, I did. And one of the brothers of, I believe it was officer Chisholm, officer Chisholm's birthday was the day of the last memorial service, and his brother came up to me afterwards, and he said, "We buried my brother yesterday," he said, "but this day was a better day for me." He said, "I'm glad you all did this, and I'm glad that I came, because now I feel strengthened. And I appreciate you for sharing that with me." And and that's what was important about it, strengthening others. And that's what music does for me. Some people drink, some people smoke to handle their stresses, music is my way of coping.

CUNNINGHAM: Well, the last thing I want is to ask you is, what do you think have been the biggest inspirations in your life to get you to where you are today?

NUNN: I've had several. First of all, I put my mother, Mrs. Aeneas Watts. My mom's 81 years old now, she's still my biggest inspiration. She told us we could do anything we wanted to, and she modeled the behavior that she expected from us. And my father, even though he had a totally different personality, he still gave some good advice. He's been dead now over 20 years. Reverend C.J. McNeal, he was my pastor of our church for 52 years, and he gave good solid advice. He loved young people, so he made opportunities for young people. One of the things that he told me, two things, and I still remember to this day, and they helped me, and I share it with people when I'm doing disciplinary hearings as well. He said, "Whatever job you have, you learn everything about it to be the best, so that when they begin to lay people off, they'll keep you, because you know more." He said, "Even if it's picking up a piece of paper, you do it better than 00:38:00anyone else."

NUNN: Second thing was, he said, "If you argue with people, you've got two fools. If one shuts up, the other one soon will." Another source of inspiration, Chief Johnny Johnson. He was doing things that I didn't realize he was doing until later. Sending me to, or asking me did I want to go some places? The FBI's National Academy, he was the reason that I went there, and some other things that he had done for me. And he was grooming me for this position. And I tried to do that for others. Some of them, they won't take advantage of training opportunities, and I'm trying to, "Go ahead and see. Try it." So, he's a source of inspiration. And my children, they are a source of inspiration for me, and right now, my granddaughter. She's two years old. And, when you asked the question about family, I should have brought that up, because people tend to see 00:39:00police as not human, we're not affected. Since I have two teenage sons, he's 20 now, but we deal with the same problems.

NUNN: When, at the age of 17, when my son was a senior, and he's come to tell me that I'm going to be a grandmother. I was like, "This got to be a nightmare." But now, she's one of the greatest joys in my life. And things are difficult, I go by. You see a smile, you get a hug, somebody that just not that demanding, they just want you for you, and that helps.

CUNNINGHAM: Does either of your sons, or do either, then want to follow you into the law enforcement profession?

NUNN: No. My oldest wants to be an attorney. I guess that's sort of law enforcement, but he said he wants to be an attorney. He may teach school first. The youngest, at first, he wanted to be a basketball star. He does play 00:40:00basketball. Now, he wants to be a welder, because they want planning to put him in the apprenticeship program, so he decided that's what he wants to do. I said, "That's your choice. I don't force into you into it." But, hopefully we'll have some that want to be law enforcement officers in the future.

CUNNINGHAM: Can you see your granddaughter one day being a female police chief of Birmingham?

NUNN: With the outgoing personality that she has right now, I can see her being anything that she wants to be [crosstalk 00:40:31].

CUNNINGHAM: Would you like to see her follow in grandmother's footsteps?

NUNN: It would be nice if she would. I actually have a picture of her with my hat, and it's like she's saluting. We're going to use for our recruiting poster for police. So, it would be nice, years down the road, to see her to be an officer, or to be the chief of police here in Birmingham. But I don't want to force my views, and what I want them to do on any of them. Be what you want to 00:41:00be as long as it's lawful.

CUNNINGHAM: Okay, very good. Thank you. Did we go an hour?

Speaker 3:[inaudible 00:41:15] That's fine. That's excellent.

CUNNINGHAM: Very good, very good. Thank you, ma'am. Say, I learned a lot sitting here talking to you. Your birthday is just two months before mine, I didn't know we work ...

CUNNINGHAM: We are back with more of our conversation with Birmingham Police Chief, Annetta Nunn, and you wanted to talk more about the inspirations in your life that led to where you are today.

NUNN: Yes. One that I left off was Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. I definitely didn't want to leave him out. I never really had the opportunity to meet him until I became chief of police. Maybe I was deputy chief the first time I met him. I'd heard about him, had seen him on television, and I had the chance to actually talk with him. I remember the first time that I met him, they were having the black car dealership convention here in Birmingham, and they had a 00:42:00program. He was doing a book signing, and he was speaking at 16th Street Baptist Church. And after it was over, members from the institute needed to get him back to his hotel, but they had to also open the institute, the gift shop back up. So they were trying to get him back, I said, "Well, I'm getting ready go home, I'll take him."

NUNN: And, they introduced me to him, and he looked at me, he said, "The chief of Birmingham.", he said, "If the chief had looked like this when I was coming up, I wouldn't have mind going to jail." And, get a chance to talk to him firsthand about some of the things that he went through, it just makes you appreciate him and others even more. And, someone that's right here from this area, we appreciate all of our civil rights icons. There was Rosa Parks, Dr. King, and all of those, but he was here. One of his big pushes was to get black 00:43:00people on the police force just in our own communities, and it took years, 10 years later, for it to finally happen. So, he's a source of inspiration. And I still have conversations with him now, and try to meet him when he comes back to the city, and to spread his message in ... For someone to go through as much as he went through, and he's never been bitter. Now, that's a fete.

NUNN: I mean, they tried to blow him up. And I use him in crime prevention as people say, "Well, I'm afraid of getting involved in my community, because this may happen, and this may ..." I say, "It very may will happen, but think of those who were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. If they had say that, I would not be where I am today, and you would not be where you are. So, we've got to get involved. We've got to make it for those younger people that are coming behind us." And, those members of our department, we try to let them know about some of I, because they're young. This is the generation Xers. We don't have 00:44:00this special patch of police that we grow people from. Chief Johnson used to always say that, "They're your children, and if you don't teach them about what happened, they won't appreciate the interaction, or understand some of the interactions they will have with older citizens in Birmingham, because they remember back when. In their eyes, you're still a police officer no matter whether you're black or white, and how you interact with them will determine what they think about us when they leave." And, we always say we have to get the public trust. What we do affects that.

NUNN: Our biggest complaints within that we receive against police officers, is not use of force. That's the smallest number of complaints that we get. So, think how we've changed over the years from the '60s, that used to be a major complaints, use of force. But it's the least amount that we get now. The biggest one is attitude, and people perception of our attitude. So, the way that we ... 00:45:00Again, those communication skills, interaction, collaboration, they come to play on how we affect, and we can learn from those who came before us.

CUNNINGHAM: You talked about Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth who probably even wondered when he was going through what he did in the '50s and early '60s, of being brutalized by police, his church and his home bombed, and being in jail, if he would not only ever see a black person on a police force in his lifetime, much less the chief of police being an African American woman, what kind of reaction do you get from older blacks in the community who lived through that brutality, and now they see you as heading up the police department?

NUNN: I've actually had some of them, they just start crying in front of me, because they are ... They say, "We've never thought we'd ever see this when we were going through this." Or they want to just give you a hug, and they wonder, "Can I hug a chief?" "Well, sure." And, it makes me feel good, because I do 00:46:00represent what they fought so hard for, and that keeps me going. I mean, there are times when I tell them, "I wanted to say take this job and shove it.", because you get people on the direct opposite side. They'd say, "Now that you are there, you don't know where you came from, you should do this, and you should do that." I had a lady tell me that ... She was not older. She was a middle aged lady. And she was saying, "Well, if some of police officers' relatives were killed, maybe you all would react differently to violence, and maybe you can then figure out how to stop it." I said, "Ma'am, I've had a brother-in-law that's been killed in this city. I had a cousin that was killed. I've got some officers that one has two of his brothers have been killed. One recently had his nephew murdered. That's just a few. So, we are affected. We 00:47:00don't want to see it happen."

NUNN: And later on, she said, "Well, maybe if you were out in the community more, and going door to door talking to the neighbors." And I said, "Ma'am, this day that I'm talking to you started at 6:30 AM." I said, "Now it's nine o'clock at night, and I'm here at a meeting with you. So when would you like for me to fit that in? I mean, there's only so much that I can do. I'm the representative, but we have to have community support, and have to have you taking this message out." And some of the older people, they understand. One of the minister's, I think he's in his 80s, when we were going through the issue about the assault weapons, there was a meeting at his church. And he said, "You know," he said, "I was here during the civil rights struggle." He actually played in the Negro League. He said, "I was in the military." He said, "If you sent me to the military today with the same weapon that I took back then," he said, "I wouldn't go." He says, "So now you're going to ask police officers to go with something 00:48:00that the criminals don't have, they have something better, and you're going to put them out there." He said, "You're all crazy."

NUNN: So, we do get a lot of support from those who have been there, and who understand. So, I think in that light, we owe them that respect by the way we act, the way we interact, the way that we treat them. Because sometimes, we don't treat our elderly citizens, especially in this country, the way that we should, and we owe them a great debt.

CUNNINGHAM: Do you sometimes feel maybe you're stuck in the middle between the folks who say to you that they never thought they'd see this in their lifetime, you being a police chief, and then the younger people who have no sense of history, and don't even understand what you represent?

NUNN: I do. So, I see myself as, hopefully, a bridge that can show how the ones who support me who went through the civil rights struggle, I can now show the 00:49:00younger people through history that this is what they did, this is what you should appreciate, and this is a standard that you have to maintain. You may not have any money, but Mary McLeod Bethune didn't either when she started a college. Dr. Gustin didn't either when he started his business. It can be done, but you're going to have to learn. You're going to have to make sacrifices. Too often now, I see that people don't want to sacrifice for anything, they just want it now. And I often use that, I call it my Black History Month message. It was entitled, "Have we turned the dream into a nightmare?" using Dr. King's, I Have a Dream speech, and contrasting it to where we are today.

NUNN: Now, things that he warned us about, and even tying it in with the Bible in saying that, with the children of Israel, and say, "When you go into the promised land, and you have those houses that you didn't build, those wells you 00:50:00didn't dig, those trees you didn't plant," he said, "don't forget me, that I am still the Lord your God." He'd roll it to the Civil Rights Movement. "When I bring you into the promised land, and you can live in houses you didn't build, jobs that you couldn't get, you can now buy clothes anywhere you want to, don't forget me." And when we do, we see what happened. He promised that it would happen, that we'll be in turmoil. And that's where we are now. So, again, that bridge, to get people to see that we've got to go back to what brought us where we are, and improve on that. And that's not saying we have to do the exact same tactics. We got to allow our young people to do the things that they do today. Too often we want to do the same thing over and over, and they get bored with it. They're into technology, let them use their technology to bridge the gap, to bring our history forward, to improve on it, or if there's a new method of doing 00:51:00something, let them have a shot at it.

NUNN: I say, "As long as it's not illegal, immoral, or unethical, let them have a shot at it." And get them on board. And I think, one of the main complaints they say is that, "Nobody listens to us. They tell us what we want, and what we should do, but nobody ever asked us." And, you ask them, they will definitely tell you.

CUNNINGHAM: Okay, thank you very much.

NUNN: You're welcome.